Hah. This from someone that is in fact nothing but a cheater.

The way that Maiden and KzintiPatriarch and the Kzinti Empire has bested all others is a simple matter of "hands-down 100% cheating, no doubt about it."

The above is a quote from Kryo who is aware of the situation as is Cari. Whether or not anything will ever be done about it is uncertain. After all GalCiv2 is pretty much end of life and to spend money, time and effort to eliminate cheating in what is after all a single player game is probably not in the cards.

I'm talking about editing files outside of what is possible from within game, specifically setting the <AIPersonality>to a value of 3 in an opponents *.customracexml file as in the following.

<AIPersonality>3</AIPersonality>

What this does is allow you to play against a Dread Lord opponent, or 9 Dread Lord opponents if you so choose. Dread Lords do not colonize planets other than their home system secondary. They also do not research. But the big thing is that the Dread Lords receive 20,000 BC each and every turn plus they are willing to trade great chunks of that money for a few relatively mundane techs.

So you play in a galaxy where no one is competing for colonization, where your opponents simply stay out of your way while willingly giving you large sums of cash to fund levels of research and planet development that no ordinary player is capable of.

A million point game used to be an accomplishment. Now you can get a 1.5 million point game in less than a year and are likely to break 3 million when extended for a few years. That’s not to say that such a game is not an accomplishment. It is a tremendous accomplishment that demonstrates the utmost in the willingness to accept the most tedious game play possible just to receive the honor of reaching heights with their cheating that no one before could accomplish.

Well done.

What you in fact have done is driven the final nail into the GalCiv2 Metaverse which is what I find sad. I knew the eventual death of the Metaverse was inevitable however I did not realize that it would be killed by those that purport to be its last remaining defenders.

It is *you* that have killed the game. To you honor is simply the lack of a cheat flag on a game.

I have no need to defend myself from you or your countless members that join your empire simply because they wish to have the gold Metaverse Empire medal without having to spend any effort on their own part. You are the empire of band-wagon jumpers, no more, no less.

However I will remind folks of a couple of items. For one it’s unlikely that there would have ever been an AltMeta without me. Certainly Kryo is responsible for the AltMeta and I take no credit away from him but ask him who the motivating force was behind the AltMeta and I’m sure he will acknowledge my contribution.

In a similar manner without the Metaverse Council which I essentially brought from the ground up there would have been no Metaverse League. There is no person that has contributed more to trying to extend the life of the Metaverse than I.

Finally with respect to the games that I played, I played DL v1.4x pretty much exclusively and in fact am the only person to have ever scored 1 million points in that version. The key point to that is that bankruptcy actually meant something in that version. If you are bankrupt in DL v1.4x you could not produce ships and buildings using focus from research. Nor could you simply buy buildings while bankrupt or continue to upgrade ships continuously while bankrupt. You can do all of these things in the newer versions of DL and DA and without such techniques could not score nearly as high. Not only that but in DL v1.4x I never edited a single file outside of what was permissible within the context of the games User Interface.

But that’s OK. It doesn’t cause a cheat flag and as we’ve seen that is the entire extent of honor these days.

So congratulations to Maiden, KzintiPatriarch and the entire Kzinti Empire. Not only have you killed a great game you have also beaten all the dead corpses of players that stopped playing the game ages ago.

All hail KzintiPatriarch, the emperor of the last empire standing that has bested every single opponent that no longer cares about the game.

Glad to hear a response from you Mumble.

Personally I have never used that Dread Lords exploit, and as to others who have done so (in any empire), or tried to do so, which includes yourself Mumblefratz, each person must follow their own conscience.  If you consider this cheating, as you say, then the Swindle all-diplomacy strategy, which Purge created and you helped develop and strongly promulgated, should also be considered cheating, for it too gives the AIs absolutely zero chance to win the game...they are both all about nothing more than points-grinding, when the game is already won long before.  You therefore condemn your own past actions with your current statements.

Your involvement with the AltMeta, MV Council, and dont forget also the MV League are all accomplishments worthy of acknowledgment and gratitude.

Jacklv has also scored 1 million points in all three expansions, by the way, so he joins you in that exclusive club of a DL 1 million point games.  edit:  I see now that you are talking about different versions here.

Sentient species taste better...

I do not believe in cheating.

Those of you who know me, or remember me, may remember my initial dilemma regarding the difficulty modifier to research-I was convinced it was an unfair advantage to the player and for the longest time refused to use it, simply by only playing on Tough.

I also had issues with advanced ARC-to the point that I advocated banning it from the MVL, even though I was merely a spectator and not an actual participant.

I am still that person.  I still believe in a game without bugs.  But that is not the game that we have, nor the game that we play.  At best, we can hope to not have these exact bugs reproduced in GC3.

We must work with what we have, not what we wish we had, and we must make the best of it.  And if it is fun for some to score, then that's fine.  And if it is fun for some to never finish a game, then that's fine.  And if it is fun for some to play a game, and post it, regardless of score, then that's fine.  And if it is fun for some to play a modded game, and post it with a cheat flag, then that's fine, too.

As long as the game is fun, it will continue to exist.  When we begin fighting amongst ourselves, and squabble over what constitutes a game, THAT is the death of not just the MV, but the game at large.

And if this is truly the death of the MV, then perhaps we can all get back to playing for enjoyment, rather than score-even if enjoyment may be score, for some.

Well-said, SS!

Sentient species taste better...

No the difference is that anything that I did was done in-game within the context of what was explicitly allowed by the User Interface.

AIPersonality 3 is *not* selectable by the UI and claims of it occurring "naturally" via a "setup glitch" notwithstanding, the only way for someone to play against Dread Lord opponents is for them to hand edit files outside of the UI. I concur that any and pretty much all ARC is similar and in fact at the time I argued against ARC as well. However again there is a difference and that is of scale. With "standard" ARC about the most dramatic thing you can do is to give all opponents the Breeder SA and while that in itself can increase score (by 50% max by my guess probably 25% in reality) it cannot do so 3 or 4 fold. Other than Breeder SA about the only other thing is to give everybody a 3rd planet in their starting system which hardly matters. However if I had my druthers I'd outlaw all form of ARC outside of what the game allows within the UI as well.

I PM'ed both Kryo and Cari about this issue pretty much the minute that I found out about it, but as I said I don't have very high expectations of much action at this point in the GalCiv2 life cycle. As I mentioned above, Kryo responded via PM that "In any case, it is hands-down 100% cheating, no doubt about it. If people are modifying things outside the context of the game UI (as the DL AI type is not selectable) for metaverse matches and those changes have a significant gameplay/scoring impact, that is not an acceptable play style." Whether or not he's willing to back me publicly remains to be seen.

If you recall I tried to bring this up in the ZYW thread but was soundly shouted down by the handful of players that are still active in the Metaverse which also all happen to be Kzinti members.

You have been around long enough to remember Master U and his Galactic Empire. This was in the days of DL v1.2 and people discovered that they could modify their own *.raceconfig files to give themselves 400% starting econ bonuses and other similar bonuses. At the time the MV did not check this condition but thankfully the game had enough life left in it that this was corrected. If we take your attitude then no cheat flag meant that was perfectly OK.

So to get back to your "charges" against me of "spying", I say yeah, so what?

In the first place I'm not aware of any "long standing agreement" against spying between Metaverse empires. Please point me to any threads where this was discussed because I certainly don't recall any.

Also while I realize this will simply devolve into he said she said there have been a number of very suspicious characters that have in the past shown up in ToE private areas only to later be thought to be just another alias. No proof but enough suspicion to cause doubt that the Kzinti Empire is without sin in regard to its own spying. By the way as far as aliases, I only have the three characters and one username unlike those that hide behind 2, 3 or who knows how many aliases.

Secondly my specific purpose and the timing of my "spying" was in direct relation to my suspicion of use of this AIPersonality cheat by members of the Kzinti Empire. As a result of my "spying" it was clear that GmOOnii discovered the AIPersonality cheat and sent Maiden her *.customracexml file. There was never any discussion about this being caused by any so called setup glitch, just a statement of hand editing AI personality to 3 (or 12).

Finally, my spying was *not* in fact an abuse of my Global Moderator privileges at the Core. As a Global Mod I could not in fact see any of your private forums. It was only when I went to Tech and told him that I wanted to spy on your forums that he gave *all* Global Moderators full Admin privileges and even then all I could see was the GC2 Strategy and the Off-topic forums so then Tech gave me the "hvewa88" password which then allowed me to see into the War Council and the top level Kzinti Empire forum. I never could see into the Recruitment Center but big whoop. Sorry to throw Tech under the bus here but you see I was "spying" with the permission of, and only due to explicit actions taken by, the site owner.

So I was caught spying on a cheater. Boo Hoo Hoo.

And yet I would have let it go and not made a fuss about it if you hadn't felt the need to drag my name through the mud with this spying nonsense. Hey, it was your choice to out Maiden as a cheater. Hope you're happy with the results.

Well, at least you don't deny your deeds.  But of course you can't.  I thought you might fabricate some story...like a secret mission on behalf of SD.  Instead you again resort to name calling and personal attacks.

The empire of band-wagon jumpers.  I first saw this written by a frustrated 15 year old (maybe it is something that you actually did originate).  I took no offense because he was working hard to build his empire.  But I would guess most members joined the empire for the same reason I did.  KP was the first to invite me.  Later I was invited to join another empire but by then KP had helped and mentored me and I felt it would be a betrayal of his trust.  That is something, I'm sure at least Tech, had hoped you had learned.

Until now, you seemed quite enthusiastic about you ill-gotten gains.  Even going so far as to download current versions of the game...something you were loathe to do for years.  You no doubt did it for your own benefit and would likely reveal the information in the future, as your own.  The OP prevents that.

You're not sorry to throw Tech under the bus to cover your ass...or you wouldn't.  Your sorry you got caught.  Your attempt to excuse your behavior as some great defender of the MV is unseemly, pitiful.

 

 

 

This makes the game go faster if you use one "3", but I have not seen any increase in the score of my recent games.The preferred strategy (at least in ToA) absolutely depends on having as many AIs, with 200% financial abilities, colonizing as fast as they possibly can. It would defeat the strategy to use more than one "3". It does open some exiting new avenues of strategic exploration, so I applaud it. If it is a common tactic, then we are all on the same playing field, yes? It's not like this is some big secret in the metaverse community.

Now for a question:

Did you PM Kryo/Cari regarding some of the equally creative ARC tactics that the ToE developed and used? Yes, I know all about them. Do not, by the way, expect me to believe that the ToE was NOT using the "3" long before it was generally revealed to the rest of us, either! There is NO WAY that they could have conducted the exhaustive ARC experiments and NOT discovered this.

And while we are at it, hows about Auto Hot Key? YOUR empire was using this for a very long time to gain a decisive advantage over the other empires before it was revealed in this forum. Why are you getting all high-and-mighty on your leftist soapbox now, hmmmmm? How do you justify your previous complicity in epidemic unfairness?

I almost forgot: I noticed that the 8 other AIs (the ones who want to wipe you out without mercy) ALSO use the "3", since it develops no military and is easy prey for extortion.

 

 

Ah. Out come the sock puppets.

ToA is admittedly different and I have no idea whether or not using Dread Lords opponents in ToA gives the same advantage as in DA.

No one in ToE had any knowledge of how to use a Dread Lord opponent and no one did any experimentation on AIPersonality other than what was selectable from within the game which I think gives you 4 types you can use.

Also if you know all about "equally creative ARC tactics that the ToE developed" then please feel free to PM Kryo/Cari as well as publish these tactics here. If they exist other than giving everyone Super Breeder SA then they must have forgotten to tell me about it.

I found out about AHK after I left the Diplomats and joinedToE so I can't speak to how long it was in use prior to becoming common knowledge. Are you saying that using a commercially available program (actually free I think) that performs repetitive mouse movement and click routines is cheating? If so do you claim to have not used such routines yourself? However to be honest I did not have the benefit of this knowledge for my million point DL v1.4x game.

I posted my last real game on 11/11/2008. The install date of AHK on my system was 1/12/2009. When did you first start using AHK?

I have no problem with these tactics, I'm just wondering why you did not take offense to them

You still knew about it and, apparently, took no offense to it. I know for a fact that the ToE kept this a closely guarded secret, believing that the community would view it as "cheating" (which I do not). I found out about AHK in Sept, 2009, and was darn glad! My point is this: If you are so gung-ho to crusade against "unfair advantages", why did you not throw ToE under the bus too?

Now, allow me to address this supposed super-exploit (the "3").

This game was played using the "3":

This previous game was played well before the "3" was revealed to me:

If it is such a tremendous advantage, why isn't the "3" score well above the non-"3" score Well, I know the answer. It' is not such a dramatic exploit as people seem to believe.

Everyone pay attention to this:

***Look, it's a good trick, but not all THAT good. 9 AIs with 200% econ ability usually have 20k between them by the time a player has enough desirables to trade for that kind of cash.***

Mumble, if as you claim, you were merely going about trying to ensure fair-play, why not tell me, the Kzinti (or the GC2 community) that Kryo had said that this DL exploit was not MV legal?  This is not something I had heard until yesterday when I asked Kryo about it specifically.  Obviously your agenda was not what you say, but was instead intended as an action against the Kzinti directly.  If you know me at all, you should also know that I never condone cheating (we'll fore-go the philosophical debate about this that SS raised for now) of any sort.  Immediately upon hearing the response from Kryo yesterday, I advised members of the Kzinti that the DL exploit will no longer be used for MV games within the empire.  If you had first come to me (or anyone in the Kzinti) and said simply, "Kryo said this is not MV legal", that would have been the end of this exploit for MV games.  You did not even try to do this.

Clearly, your concern was not with everyone playing the game fairly and legally, but instead with doing damage to a group of people, and empire, that you have always had a grudge against.  Your true motive is obvious from your actions.

Sentient species taste better...

Alow me to reiterate this:

***Look, it's a good trick, but not all THAT good. 9 AIs with 200% econ ability usually have 20k between them by the time a player has enough desirables to trade for that kind of cash.***

If Kryo wants to take the position that this is an undesirable tactic, he needs to come on this thread and make his case. I don't think he can, because I don't see the type of advantage that compares to the ToA Planetary Governor Exploit. Again, to take advantage of this the player has to have 20K worth of stuff to trade, which does not happen early in the game. Just what IS the difference between getting 20K from 9 AIs vs getting it from ONE AI? The "3" is NOT going to give me any more cash in trade for something than any other AI. If I trade Expert Miniaturization to the "3" and 8 other AIs, I get exactly the same amount of cash that I would get by trading it to 9 "standard" AIs.

I don't play DL, DA, or YZWs, but in Gigantic/Abundant ToA games this is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

We're all cheaters. Twisted this game up into something it was never meant to be eventually sucking the fun out(for me at least). I'm just glad to see there are those, whether it be peeps that came in later, or ones that have been able to keep the fire burning since the beginning still playing and keeping the community going. GC2 is still one of my top three favs ever and should live on.

Hey DA, good to see you.   There is certainly some truth in what you say. 

There are still some of us playing and having fun with the game, whether that be on the MV or not.

Sentient species taste better...

Interesting. Except that I did in fact try to bring up this discussion and was totally stonewalled first in private PM's to both you *and* Maiden and then again in public. So your claim of coming to you "or anyone in the Kzinti" lacks a certain amount of credence all because at that time I failed to mention Kryo's name and only then simply because he had not yet made that response to me.

And that was also not the impression that was left with me after simply trying to bring up the Dread Lords topic in the ZYW thread. After everyone and their brother (plus all of their aliases) jumped down my throat for simply expressing my opinion it did not seem like something that you or anyone else was prepared to discuss in any kind of civilized manner.

I assume that Kryo did in fact affirm my quote to you at least privately and if in fact no Kzinti will be using this in any future games then I applaud you for that decision, however I did come to you long before it ever came to this, both privately and publicly and this is not the kind of response I received. If it had been then we both could have avoided a lot of grief but that was your choice not mine.

So I take it that Maiden's 687K ZYW and the resulting 4 year 2.2M will be considered "cheat flagged" games along with his 1.5M ZYW and any future submission based on that game?

You may in fact be correct with regards to ToA, I have no experience with it from which to base a judgement. However for DA you can get more cash in trade from a 3 than you can get from any other AI Personality type. Particularly when you can come back the very next turn and they have another 20K to trade for whatever you researched last turn.

In any case I make no pretense to any specific knowledge about ToA. I only know what I've verified myself which is specifically for DA v2.01.

If in ToA they fixed the DA bug that allows you to go back and trade with all the AI's except one each and every turn then I can see how using DL opponents may not be as big of an advantage.

In any case Maiden went from submitting run of the mill ZYW's in the mid to high 100K's as late as March 23, 2010 to breaking the previous record on March 27, 2010 while acknowledging GmOOnii's "Special ARC" that included 4 Dread Lords. From there to the afore mentioned 687K game, followed by a 300K good alignment game, a 250K tiny and the 1.5M gigantic all abundant ZYW. These games basically broke the previous best scores by between 500% to 800%. So in the case of DA this *is* something substantial.

Heya Kp . I am still perusing the forums daily, just most of my posting takes place in PCGaming or Off-Topic sections.

I still play some GC2 for fun, or at least try to. It's actually difficult not use all that knowledge acquired heh.