I'll say the same as I did to KP.

If players are setting opponents to use an AI type which is quite intentionally not selectable within the game and has the effect of turning the highest difficulty AI into (as I understand it from what I've read and Mumble has described) an inert lump that serves purely for the player to farm via diplomacy then steamroll at their leisure, I don't see how anyone could really think of that any other way than as an exploit.

As we've been very busy with Elemental lately and what discussion of this was made on the forums was veiled at best prior to now, it was difficult to find a place to deal with this since no one was confessing to doing it in detail (IIRC Mumble was still trying to figure out the exact tactics on his own and wasn't sure if that's what others were doing when he contacted me).

But the bottom line is that if people are using out-of-game modification to significantly impact both gameplay and scoring on the metaverse, that's not going to fly. Just because it doesn't cheat flag doesn't mean it's open game.

The difference is that setting a normal AI opponent to use the Dreadlord AI type causes it to never research on its own and never fight back, as I understand it. You will always be able to sell every tech to them; It completely neuters them.

If you're referring to the bug where one-per-galaxy improvements aren't removed from the queue once one is completed (and if that bug still exists--haven't checked), that would also be an invalid tactic. You'd be taking advantage of a bug to get an obvious and significant advantage.

Yes, as I said, this is exactly the case.  When one of the creators of the game says, "______ is not MV legal", then in my opinion (I know others disagree), it should no longer be used for MV games.  Kryo's statement certainly holds immensely more weight than yours, or mine, or any other random player of the game.  That you believed it cheating was only as relevant as any other member of the community's opinion, no more or no less.  You chose to take an adversarial and deceitful route, rather than honestly stating what you knew, and what others (Kryo) had said.  And yes, I have directed Kzinti members to not use this for MV games for the Empire.  If they choose to use it for non-MV-games, or for games with characters in other empires, that is each individual person's choice.

Edit: Thanks for stating clearly your position Kryo.  In regards to the Planetary Governor exploit, the Kzinti and ToE became aware of this at roughly the same time, and Neilo and I quickly decided that using it would be cheating and harmful to the MV, and therefore banned all our respective members from using it.

Sentient species taste better...

I volunteered to refrain from using the "3" in Kzinti games, so I'm just debating for debating's sake at this point. As far as thy type of game I play in ToA goes, I remain unconvinced. Could I not create 9 custom AIs with the Drengin Tree and sell them every tech also?

That's exactly my point. The ToA v2.02 bug would definitely get you a 3 Million-pointer if you knew how to use it. Now THAT is an extreme exploit. Maybe for DA or YZWs, this "3" thing may have some big impact, I don't know. I'm only debating whether this should be deemed "cheating" across the board with no significant analysis.

Look, I can get Million-Pointers without the "3". If it's going to cause a huge stink, I may restrict it to the TwP empire for "novelty" strategies, which I will post as such. I haven't decided yet. Out of respect for KP, as previously stated, I'll end the "3" in his Empire's games.

If you really want this stopped, you are simply going to have to alter the MV to flag the games. While you're at it, maybe  suggest to Brad that someone fix v2.03. It causes crippling lockups in the diplomacy screens and the event popups.

As Kryo mentioned my state of knowledge of this has evolved over time and I did not know everything that I know now at the first moment I tried to bring up the question nor at the point at which I contacted Kryo/Cari nor even at the point that Kryo made his comment to me which looking at my PM records was on May 23rd. However you in fact knew all that I know now from the very beginning (other than Kryo's response which as he said "I don't see how anyone could really think of that any other way than as an exploit") and if anyone was deceitful it was you, not me.

As far as delaying mentioning what Kryo said I had hoped that he could find some appropriate place to mention this on his own without my prodding. I pointed both Kryo and Cari to specific replies in the ZYW thread to which an appropriate comment could be made. I did not want to have to "force" Kryo's hand in this but you in fact forced me to.

Speaking of honesty I think that Stardock also bears at least some responsibility for things getting to this state of affairs.

When the concept of ARC was first discussed it was brought up in what I consider to be a mature and responsible way. There were certainly folks on both sides of the opinion but both sides were at least willing to consider the other sides point of view and in fact I think we all took great effort to bring these things to Stardock's attention and to point out what the ramifications of these changes were.

This was fully described in the How do you make custom races Metaverse compatible? thread and as far as I know Silverbeacher's writeup (who was still in the ToE at the time only later jumping ship to the Kzinti) is still the definitive description of ARC. (BTW I don't suppose that SB mentioned any ToE secrets when he jumped ship. No of course not.)

And while if you look carefully you can see that SB highlighted AIPersonality as a modifiable item, no where will you find any discussion of this at all and like I said everything that I've seen (and asked) in the ToE private areas makes no mention of this other than what can be selected within game.

Anyway at the time I believe everyone discussed this in good faith and Cari even made an appearance in the thread saying that she would have to give it some thought. However nothing ever came of it and essentially everyone took that to mean at least tacit acceptance of the ARC concept by Stardock.

But that's where the slippery slope began. If you accept one set of out of game modifications then what's the big whoop at modifying just one more single line? If Stardock had been more definitive then wouldn't we have a clear idea today of what is or is not OK? Still as Kryo said "I don't see how anyone could really think of that any other way than as an exploit."

I had also witnessed the discussions about the ToA planetary governor bug that KP mentioned and IIRC this was not discussed for more than one single day before everyone involved, both ToE and Kzinti, seemed to easily and quickly agree that using that was simply not acceptable.

Given that discussion I was somewhat dismayed when I approached both maiden and KP privately via PM about this subject and was quickly and firmly rebuffed based on "empire secret". It was only after being rebuffed privately that I brought the subject up in the ZYW thread where again everyone pretty much jumped down my throat. And then you wonder why I might possibly have an adversarial attitude?

So what is acceptable and what isn't? Should all forms of ARC be unacceptable and everyone should be limited to only in-game modifications?

Or should we simply keep ourselves to the Status Quo which is everyone can modify anything without question *except* AIPersonality? Of course that would apply to everyone except myself since I am not allowed to question anyone without being labelled an "enemy of the Kzinti Empire" whereas anyone can question my motivations on anything they want even, on games that I've never submitted.

In other words is super breeder for all opponents acceptable or not? If not do we strike the records of those known or admitted to use this or what? Or do we do like baseball and leave Barry Bonds 73 home run season and 762 career home runs in place? Or how about that asterisk that I previously mentioned?

When ARC was first discovered and proposed, I did not think it was a good idea.  The thought of modifying the raceconfig files from outside the game didnt seem quite right.  The majority of people thought otherwise though, and so it became accepted practice among the community, including myself.  This is indeed when the "slippery slope" was first started.

Mumble, one thing I have noticed over the years of communicating with you, is that you often attribute ulterior motives to other people, and see nefarious intent in many places where it doesnt exist:  Silverbeecher must have given ToE secrets to the Kzinti, everyone was trying to infiltrate the ToE, other empires are constantly trying to cheat, etc, etc.  I think this is more a reflection of your own thought processes, than what is actually true of others.  There are not conspiracies around every corner.  Sure, some people are bastards and act dishonorably, but its not as endemic as it seems you believe.

Sentient species taste better...

I'm not quite positive that it neuters the AI quite as much as is commonly believed.  I seem to recall the AI building ships and fighting back when I traded it techs (as is the general route to its money).  In any case, most players using this strategy are "good" enough that they will most likely never see them build ships.

The point I'm making is not so much a defense of the strategy as the fact that the AI will still fight back to the utmost of its capabilities.  It's just a matter of players doing things ingame such that the AI's ability to use that admittedly out-of-game limited capability is further diminished.

But I grant that it is possible that I'm misremembering, since I didn't use the DL AI that much, as it's simply not as useful as it is made out to be.

Besmirch SB while your at it huh?  Who else is cheating you?  Peter fucking Pan?

One thing we can agree on.  What is the big whoop to edit one more line.  As you stated, it's not like everyone didn't know.  But evidently it took the innocent mistake of a kid for it to come to light.

I really don't care what anyone says, the MV is about score.  A legitimately played game, not a doctored score.

SD has no responsibility.  They created this game and format, for which I am grateful.  The players establish how to play the game.  Exploits and all.

But all of this is off topic.  You could not cajole, intimidate or publicly reveal information about Maiden's games to get what you wanted.  So, you illicitly eavesdropped on private conversations of the Kzinti only to find things you already knew.  And then cried cheat.

I sent PM's to both Maiden and KP about it once I did figure it out and that was in fact prior to my "illicit eavesdropping". Nor as you continue to suggest was AIPersonality 3 something that was already known prior to GmOOnii's discussion of Dread Lord opponents by anyone in the ToE because I asked and not only did no one have a clue as to how it was done no one particularly cared either, having moved on to other things. So by that point my eavesdropping as you call it was not to establish *what* but to establish that it was truly a matter of explicit hand editing of files as opposed to a "setup glitch" which was Maiden's initial claim. What my eavesdropping established is that there was nothing accidental about it, it was intentional every step of the way.

The bottom line is that it *was* in fact cheating, based on KP's own edict along with Kryo's statement to the effect that no one in their right mind could even think that this was anything but cheating.

I'm not the one making things up here. Kziniti members have been caught cheating by Kryo's and their own emperors admission and since I have submitted only one non DL v1.4x submission under any of my characters and that a measly 240K soon to be reset it hardly goes to show that I ever had any intent on using this, particularly since it was I that brought this to the attention of Kryo and Cari in the first place.

Very, very true.

An interesting rhetorical flourish, but ultimately facetious.  At the point at which Kryo (or another creator of the game) says that a particular exploit or strategy is not MV legal, the opinion of the average player loses much of it's relevance on that specific issue (in my opinion).  Whatever you, or I, or other player think on the matter, is superseded by Kryo's statement.  I believe that it is the right thing to do for those who wish to play on the MV to accept that determination by Kryo, as we have done.  To then twist this logic around and say that those players that were using it were willfully cheating, retroactively, is intellectually dishonest.  Creative use of words, but clearly a perversion of logic.

Sentient species taste better...

Time for another voice to join the foray...

"So to get back to your "charges" against me of "spying", I say yeah, so what?

In the first place I'm not aware of any "long standing agreement" against spying between Metaverse empires. Please point me to any threads where this was discussed because I certainly don't recall any."

-Mumblefratz

The brilliant ignorance plea...Let me tell you, I lay out all the rules with every person I am around. When I go to a friend's house I throw trash on the floor, "accidentally" break a few things and never offer to pay for repairs, and finish it off by leaving my excrement floating in their toilet. Sure...some complain. It all gets solved when I simply tell them, "you never told me that I shouldn't do that!"

Incidentally, you come here and take this "O, why poor little me?" atiitude to the entire basic issue: You manipulated your way into a private forum. Yes, you had your reasons, but valid or not, it was the wrong thing to do. In every sense of it. What if you were wrong? What if the reason behind many of the massive scores you have seen lately were a legitimate tactic? You would have broken into a private forum, betrayed the trust of MANY GCII empires, and destroyed the credibility of the Galactic Core. Then again, this IS what you have done...you have just forced so many others to look at your results instead of your tactics.

I wish I could quote correctly, but I'm sure you will recall these lines...They are from your very first response.

-The way that Maiden and KzintiPatriarch and the Kzinti Empire has bested all others is a simple matter of "hands-down 100% cheating, no doubt about it."

-I have no need to defend myself from you or your countless members that join your empire simply because they wish to have the gold Metaverse Empire medal without having to spend any effort on their own part. You are the empire of band-wagon jumpers, no more, no less.

Let us remember that now you are attacking an entire group of people instead of attacking strategies/tactics/exploits. Forget going into this issue...I know you are intelligent Mumble, so why use so many tricks that the unintelligent use to end arguments? Personal attacks have nothing to do with the issue, at best they are juvenile and at worst they scream for a need of social interaction.

I hate to get involved, but again Mumble, you are attacking real people with your statements.

You can try to twist my words Mumble.  Everyone knows what I meant.

What matters is the entire community now knows you for what you are.  A dishonest, morally bankrupt man.

However that was *not* the case. Kryo did not just say that this activity was cheating, he also clearly stated "I don't see how anyone could really think of that any other way than as an exploit."

This certainly implies to me that in Kryo's opinion there never should have been any reasonable doubt by anyone that this activity was cheating and therefore anyone that engaged in it did so knowing perfectly well that it was cheating.

We used to have an actual GC2 community. I certainly miss those times. I'm sure we all do, which is why we all still hang around this carcass in the faint hope of a return to even just the faintest shadow of those times. In those days a thread would scroll off the first 50 posts of the recent posts list in 15 minutes. And these were almost 100% exclusively direct GalCiv2 related threads without an Off-topic or Impulse thread in sight.

Simpler times. Most everyone was helpful to each other. Even the few intentional pains in the asses had character and some redeeming value (Evil Stormbringer, Wheel of Fire, Marcathonas).

However those days are long gone and it's foolish to assume they'll ever return. If you want to see the future of the GalCiv2 "community" just visit https://www.galciv1.com/forum.asp, if you dare.

However this same "entire community" that is berating me now is the same "entire community" that berated me for even bringing up this topic in the ZYW thread. But at least according to Kryo *I* was right and the *entire community* was wrong. And that applies just as much now as it did then.